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<head><meta charset="utf-8"><title>design meeting · t-lang · Zulip Chat Archive</title></head>
<h2>Stream: <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/index.html">t-lang</a></h2>
<h3>Topic: <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html">design meeting</a></h3>

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<a name="184911086"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/184911086" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#184911086">(Jan 06 2020 at 14:39)</a>:</h4>
<p>Hey <span class="user-group-mention" data-user-group-id="1977">@T-lang</span> -- just a remember that today (in a little over two hours) we have our first design meeting, discussing the pin soundness bug. Hopefully <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="120791">@RalfJ</span> will be able to make it. I was wondering if anybody knows if there is a good summary that people can read to get an "overview" of the issue? (I've got to catch up, I stopped looking at some point)</p>



<a name="184918008"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/184918008" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#184918008">(Jan 06 2020 at 15:51)</a>:</h4>
<p>Also, for the next two design meetings, I propose:</p>
<ul>
<li>January 13 -- <code>dyn Trait</code> soundness bugs, primarily <a href="https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/issues/57893" target="_blank" title="https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/issues/57893">#57893</a></li>
<li>January 20 -- ffi-unwind (cc <span class="user-group-mention" data-user-group-id="1866">@WG-ffi-unwind</span>), <a href="https://hackmd.io/PMlTBQS2T1i_a3lBW0348g" target="_blank" title="https://hackmd.io/PMlTBQS2T1i_a3lBW0348g">draft blog post</a></li>
</ul>
<p>I'd like to have a write-up available for each of those meetings.</p>



<a name="184918059"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/184918059" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#184918059">(Jan 06 2020 at 15:51)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention" data-user-id="116083">@pnkfelix</span> and I won't be avail Jan 27, so we could cancel then.</p>



<a name="184919705"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/184919705" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#184919705">(Jan 06 2020 at 16:08)</a>:</h4>
<p>For reference, the <a href="https://internals.rust-lang.org/t/unsoundness-in-pin/11311" target="_blank" title="https://internals.rust-lang.org/t/unsoundness-in-pin/11311">internals thread on <code>Pin</code> is here</a></p>



<a name="184920110"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/184920110" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#184920110">(Jan 06 2020 at 16:13)</a>:</h4>
<p>Created a <a href="https://paper.dropbox.com/doc/Pin-soundness-design-Meeting-2019.01.06--Ar4y5Ae28~4U4hSSeT23hqyOAg-KCtZXQvJOwXiJtemN1JPw" target="_blank" title="https://paper.dropbox.com/doc/Pin-soundness-design-Meeting-2019.01.06--Ar4y5Ae28~4U4hSSeT23hqyOAg-KCtZXQvJOwXiJtemN1JPw">dropbox paper</a> to take notes, as I've been persuaded hackmd is more annoying</p>



<a name="184920733"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/184920733" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Josh Triplett <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#184920733">(Jan 06 2020 at 16:20)</a>:</h4>
<p>I'm not going to be able to make it today; conflicting personal appointment.</p>



<a name="184922494"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/184922494" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#184922494">(Jan 06 2020 at 16:38)</a>:</h4>
<p>OK. I've been catching up on the background thread but I'm finding I have some embrassingly basic questions around <code>Pin</code>, so I can't really setup the "general summary" I had hoped to</p>



<a name="184923832"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/184923832" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#184923832">(Jan 06 2020 at 16:52)</a>:</h4>
<p>hi there! yes I'll make it (if Zoom works ;)</p>



<a name="184923951"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/184923951" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#184923951">(Jan 06 2020 at 16:54)</a>:</h4>
<p><a href="https://mozilla.zoom.us/j/768231760" target="_blank" title="https://mozilla.zoom.us/j/768231760">Zoom link</a></p>



<a name="184924577"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/184924577" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#184924577">(Jan 06 2020 at 17:01)</a>:</h4>
<p>Hey <span class="user-group-mention" data-user-group-id="1977">@T-lang</span> -- <a href="https://paper.dropbox.com/doc/Pin-soundness-design-meeting-2019.01.06--Ar4y5Ae28~4U4hSSeT23hqyOAg-KCtZXQvJOwXiJtemN1JPw" target="_blank" title="https://paper.dropbox.com/doc/Pin-soundness-design-meeting-2019.01.06--Ar4y5Ae28~4U4hSSeT23hqyOAg-KCtZXQvJOwXiJtemN1JPw">paper link</a></p>



<a name="185512722"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/185512722" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#185512722">(Jan 13 2020 at 17:02)</a>:</h4>
<p>Hey <span class="user-group-mention" data-user-group-id="1977">@T-lang</span> --</p>



<a name="185512807"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/185512807" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#185512807">(Jan 13 2020 at 17:02)</a>:</h4>
<p><a href="https://paper.dropbox.com/doc/dyn-trait-coherence-design-meeting--AsU8wU1nWkuw4X0kdmDaquEEAg-4YoXevIOO9obVkHjwXmi4" target="_blank" title="https://paper.dropbox.com/doc/dyn-trait-coherence-design-meeting--AsU8wU1nWkuw4X0kdmDaquEEAg-4YoXevIOO9obVkHjwXmi4">paper document link</a></p>



<a name="185531300"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/185531300" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#185531300">(Jan 13 2020 at 20:00)</a>:</h4>
<p>So let's discuss upcoming design meetings. I was saying to <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="239881">@Josh Triplett</span> that today's meeting was interesting. I was having doubts if it was a good topic or not, but it seemed like it was pretty useful in terms of getting everybody on the same page.</p>



<a name="185531318"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/185531318" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#185531318">(Jan 13 2020 at 20:00)</a>:</h4>
<p>I think the next 2 weeks are probably not good because of hoildays / mozilla all hands</p>



<a name="185531332"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/185531332" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#185531332">(Jan 13 2020 at 20:00)</a>:</h4>
<p>I'd like to be synchronizing more with some of the project groups</p>



<a name="185531349"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/185531349" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#185531349">(Jan 13 2020 at 20:00)</a>:</h4>
<p>I see <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="143274">@Amanieu</span> just posted  Inline assembly <a href="https://github.com/rust-lang/rfcs/issues/2850" target="_blank" title="https://github.com/rust-lang/rfcs/issues/2850">rust-lang/rfcs#2850</a></p>



<a name="185531411"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/185531411" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#185531411">(Jan 13 2020 at 20:01)</a>:</h4>
<p>I want to get <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="120791">@RalfJ</span> and talk about the <code>derefernceable</code> attribute and especially the use around <code>UnsafeCell</code>, interactions with MMIO, not sure -- there are many angles of attack here</p>



<a name="185564769"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/185564769" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Lokathor <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#185564769">(Jan 14 2020 at 04:35)</a>:</h4>
<p>Was today's meeting recorded?</p>



<a name="185641676"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/185641676" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#185641676">(Jan 14 2020 at 21:21)</a>:</h4>
<p>Yes, I'll be posting it shortly</p>



<a name="185644429"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/185644429" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#185644429">(Jan 14 2020 at 21:52)</a>:</h4>
<blockquote>
<p>I want to get <span class="user-mention silent" data-user-id="120791">RalfJ</span> and talk about the <code>derefernceable</code> attribute and especially the use around <code>UnsafeCell</code>, interactions with MMIO, not sure -- there are many angles of attack here</p>
</blockquote>
<p>yeah this has plenty of interactions at this pint</p>



<a name="185645550"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/185645550" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#185645550">(Jan 14 2020 at 22:03)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention" data-user-id="120791">@RalfJ</span> would there be some week in February that works better for you to discuss "something about that"? (we can also narrow down which angle is best)</p>



<a name="185679658"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/185679658" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#185679658">(Jan 15 2020 at 09:02)</a>:</h4>
<p>February doesnt have anything scheduled in it, so any week should be fine</p>



<a name="187279510"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/187279510" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#187279510">(Feb 03 2020 at 16:42)</a>:</h4>
<p>Hey <span class="user-group-mention" data-user-group-id="1977">@T-lang</span> -- due to...lots of things last week, and then my daughter getting sick yesterday, I didn't have as much time to prepare for specialization meeting as I hoped, but I should be available in about 20 minutes as scheduled. I did review a bunch of stuff and am quickly dropping some notes into a <a href="https://paper.dropbox.com/doc/Specialization-Review-2020-02-03--AtqiwI7n_3~SPCFyC~mOmyU_Ag-jFYgiknJi6j00SbN83dWX" target="_blank" title="https://paper.dropbox.com/doc/Specialization-Review-2020-02-03--AtqiwI7n_3~SPCFyC~mOmyU_Ag-jFYgiknJi6j00SbN83dWX">dropbox paper</a>.</p>



<a name="187279593"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/187279593" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Josh Triplett <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#187279593">(Feb 03 2020 at 16:43)</a>:</h4>
<p>Are we planning to record this meeting as we do the usual lang meetings?</p>



<a name="187279720"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/187279720" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#187279720">(Feb 03 2020 at 16:44)</a>:</h4>
<p>I figured we would</p>



<a name="187279728"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/187279728" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#187279728">(Feb 03 2020 at 16:44)</a>:</h4>
<p>But I'm ok either way</p>



<a name="187281520"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/187281520" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#187281520">(Feb 03 2020 at 17:00)</a>:</h4>
<p>ok omw just going to grab coffee :)</p>



<a name="187281526"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/187281526" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Josh Triplett <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#187281526">(Feb 03 2020 at 17:00)</a>:</h4>
<p>Would be helpful, as I'm going to run a few minutes late. My apologies.</p>



<a name="187281899"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/187281899" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#187281899">(Feb 03 2020 at 17:04)</a>:</h4>
<p>Hey <span class="user-group-mention" data-user-group-id="1977">@T-lang</span> -- <a href="https://mozilla.zoom.us/j/768231760" target="_blank" title="https://mozilla.zoom.us/j/768231760">Zoom link</a> for design meeting</p>



<a name="187283846"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/187283846" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#187283846">(Feb 03 2020 at 17:25)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention" data-user-id="239881">@Josh Triplett</span> unfortunately you're breaking up :(</p>



<a name="187498236"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/187498236" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#187498236">(Feb 05 2020 at 21:44)</a>:</h4>
<p>( moved some content about changes to "disarm" specialization to <a class="stream-topic" data-stream-id="213817" href="/#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/disarming.20specialization">#t-lang &gt; disarming specialization</a> )</p>



<a name="187829234"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/187829234" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#187829234">(Feb 10 2020 at 16:03)</a>:</h4>
<p>Hey <span class="user-group-mention" data-user-group-id="1977">@T-lang</span> and others (notably <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="120791">@RalfJ</span>) -- reminder that the design meeting takes place today in about 1 hour. The plan is to discuss the "derefenceable" attribute and the <code>&amp;T</code> references. I've created a <a href="https://paper.dropbox.com/doc/Lang-Team-Design-Meeting-and-Deferenceable--AuG~q7f21bPiLHzVPRSQ41wJAg-enTyRslkuAcNPgqWsN4UU" target="_blank" title="https://paper.dropbox.com/doc/Lang-Team-Design-Meeting-and-Deferenceable--AuG~q7f21bPiLHzVPRSQ41wJAg-enTyRslkuAcNPgqWsN4UU">dropbox paper</a> where I'm taking a stab at doing some prep work.</p>



<a name="187829527"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/187829527" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#187829527">(Feb 10 2020 at 16:06)</a>:</h4>
<p>cc <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="228912">@James Munns</span> fyi this may interest you <span aria-label="point up" class="emoji emoji-1f446" role="img" title="point up">:point_up:</span> I forget if I mentioned this to you already</p>



<a name="187829564"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/187829564" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#187829564">(Feb 10 2020 at 16:06)</a>:</h4>
<p>if not, um, my bad</p>



<a name="187833857"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/187833857" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#187833857">(Feb 10 2020 at 16:53)</a>:</h4>
<p>Also <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="124289">@Hanna Kruppe</span>, sorry for not reaching out earlier :)</p>



<a name="187833883"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/187833883" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#187833883">(Feb 10 2020 at 16:53)</a>:</h4>
<p>(I did announce in an Inside Rust blog post, but I meant to do more reaching out to specific people than I did...)</p>



<a name="187839573"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/187839573" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#187839573">(Feb 10 2020 at 17:54)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention" data-user-id="116009">@nikomatsakis</span> what I wanted to add about  "dereferencable-on-entry": of course, this is also the option that gives up most optimization potential</p>



<a name="187839602"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/187839602" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#187839602">(Feb 10 2020 at 17:54)</a>:</h4>
<p>in the stacked borrows paper we describe some pretty impressive transformations you can do with protectors; those would be gone</p>



<a name="187839615"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/187839615" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#187839615">(Feb 10 2020 at 17:54)</a>:</h4>
<p>how much actual performance this is about, I don't know</p>



<a name="187839620"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/187839620" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#187839620">(Feb 10 2020 at 17:54)</a>:</h4>
<p>(I'm in the bus now)</p>



<a name="187840320"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/187840320" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#187840320">(Feb 10 2020 at 18:01)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention" data-user-id="120791">@RalfJ</span> yes, that makes total sense, and supporting those sorts of optimizations has been a long-term goal of ours</p>



<a name="187840327"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/187840327" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#187840327">(Feb 10 2020 at 18:01)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention" data-user-id="116009">@nikomatsakis</span> the two possible solutions we mentioned are "remove deref entirely from <code>&amp;UnsafeCell</code>" and "downgrade all deref to deref_on_entry"; I'm happy to fill in some pros and cons in the paper if you put down that basic structure</p>



<a name="187840366"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/187840366" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#187840366">(Feb 10 2020 at 18:02)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention" data-user-id="120791">@RalfJ</span> ok, that would be great, I was left feeling a bit like "I don't know what the take-away is yet" after this meeting</p>



<a name="187840380"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/187840380" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#187840380">(Feb 10 2020 at 18:02)</a>:</h4>
<p>I'll put down basic structure :)</p>



<a name="187840407"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/187840407" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#187840407">(Feb 10 2020 at 18:02)</a>:</h4>
<p>didnt want to mess with you still writing ;)</p>



<a name="187840482"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/187840482" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> pnkfelix <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#187840482">(Feb 10 2020 at 18:02)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention" data-user-id="120791">@RalfJ</span> by the way, I've been trying to tease apart the <a href="https://internals.rust-lang.org/t/stacked-borrows-an-aliasing-model-for-rust/8153/12" target="_blank" title="https://internals.rust-lang.org/t/stacked-borrows-an-aliasing-model-for-rust/8153/12">RefMut example</a>, and I wanted to clarify: Is your expectation that this is (today) UB, but it is a kind of UB that Miri does not catch?</p>



<a name="187840486"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/187840486" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#187840486">(Feb 10 2020 at 18:02)</a>:</h4>
<p>(I could also imagine "downgrade deref on <code>&amp;UnsafeCell</code> only", but that just mixes pros and cons from the other two so lets focus on the two extremes for now)</p>



<a name="187840542"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/187840542" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#187840542">(Feb 10 2020 at 18:03)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention" data-user-id="116083">@pnkfelix</span> the LLVM IR we generate for this has UB, today</p>



<a name="187840622"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/187840622" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#187840622">(Feb 10 2020 at 18:04)</a>:</h4>
<p>(IIRC <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="198590">@comex</span>  managed to weaponize this even, but I might misremember)</p>



<a name="187840638"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/187840638" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#187840638">(Feb 10 2020 at 18:04)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention" data-user-id="120791">@RalfJ</span> I added some basic structure and i'm dropping in some random notes in there, but feel free to just take over</p>



<a name="187840649"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/187840649" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> pnkfelix <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#187840649">(Feb 10 2020 at 18:04)</a>:</h4>
<p>okay. And what are you expectations for Miri?</p>



<a name="187840724"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/187840724" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> pnkfelix <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#187840724">(Feb 10 2020 at 18:05)</a>:</h4>
<p>Let me be more specific: I'm trying to understand if I mis-translated the example, and that is why Miri is not flagging an error, or if this is a known bug in Miri, or if it a known inadequacy of the model in Miri (i.e. a "wontfix" bug)</p>



<a name="187840736"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/187840736" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#187840736">(Feb 10 2020 at 18:05)</a>:</h4>
<p>Miri currently treats it as no-UB. in LLVM terms, Miri adds <code>dereferencable</code> only for plain references being passed around, not for newtypes/structs</p>



<a name="187840869"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/187840869" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#187840869">(Feb 10 2020 at 18:06)</a>:</h4>
<p>hm actually I might be wrong about this being UB in LLVM IR... I dont know if we add <code>dereferencable</code> to a ScalarPair of two references...</p>



<a name="187840880"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/187840880" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> pnkfelix <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#187840880">(Feb 10 2020 at 18:06)</a>:</h4>
<p>I see, and thus conceptually it is not allowed to e.g. move the store down, the way that it does in the original <code>&amp;mut</code> example from your blog post?</p>



<a name="187841032"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/187841032" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#187841032">(Feb 10 2020 at 18:08)</a>:</h4>
<p>this is currently a deliberate choice in Miri, it would not be hard to fix. basically Miri implements the stanza that rustc is mistranslating newtyped references.</p>



<a name="187841070"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/187841070" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#187841070">(Feb 10 2020 at 18:08)</a>:</h4>
<blockquote>
<p>I see, and thus conceptually it is not allowed to e.g. move the store down, the way that it does in the original <code>&amp;mut</code> example from your blog post?</p>
</blockquote>
<p>for the case where the reference was wrapped in a struct or tuple, yes</p>



<a name="187841169"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/187841169" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#187841169">(Feb 10 2020 at 18:10)</a>:</h4>
<p>if y'all thinks that would be better I can make miri check wrapped references again. this is orthogonal to dereferencable vs dereferencable_on_entry.</p>



<a name="187841247"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/187841247" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#187841247">(Feb 10 2020 at 18:10)</a>:</h4>
<p>I just realized that Retag recursing down to wrapped references made it a hell of a complicated operation, and so simplified it or else we'd never be able to formally model it in Coq ;)</p>



<a name="187841668"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/187841668" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#187841668">(Feb 10 2020 at 18:15)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention" data-user-id="116009">@nikomatsakis</span> I did some filling out, is that clear enough?</p>



<a name="187846808"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/187846808" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#187846808">(Feb 10 2020 at 18:59)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention" data-user-id="120791">@RalfJ</span> yes, thanks, I left one question</p>



<a name="187846837"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/187846837" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#187846837">(Feb 10 2020 at 18:59)</a>:</h4>
<p>I think there was something I hadn't fully understood or considered</p>



<a name="187846882"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/187846882" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#187846882">(Feb 10 2020 at 19:00)</a>:</h4>
<p>around the "infectious" nature of <code>UnsafeCell</code></p>



<a name="187847723"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/187847723" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#187847723">(Feb 10 2020 at 19:09)</a>:</h4>
<p>responded inline</p>



<a name="187866884"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/187866884" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#187866884">(Feb 10 2020 at 22:45)</a>:</h4>
<p>Thanks. I had been thinking about this on a sloppy way. I hadn't fully realized that protectors give you finer grained detail than the derefenceable attribute captures. This suggests that (for this purpose) we would want "maximum infection" on Unsafe Cell but it's not obvious that this is what we want elsewhere. I guess there is a Continuum here.. the bottom line is that the unsafe cell (when acting as a ref count) is not clearly linked to the memory that it is ref counting.</p>



<a name="188088573"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/188088573" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#188088573">(Feb 13 2020 at 09:01)</a>:</h4>
<p>yes. when they are in the same struct, we can get around this lack of "linking" by being maximally infectious (<del>and we need to be for <code>Arc</code> to be fixed</del> then even in a hypothetical variant with more helper methods all is still fine), but that does not work any more when they are entirely separated somehow.</p>



<a name="212579986"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/212579986" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> simulacrum <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#212579986">(Oct 07 2020 at 15:57)</a>:</h4>
<p>Did we have something scheduled for today? Did we finish backlog last week?</p>



<a name="212579995"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/212579995" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> simulacrum <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#212579995">(Oct 07 2020 at 15:57)</a>:</h4>
<p>cc <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="116009">@nikomatsakis</span> <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="239881">@Josh Triplett</span></p>



<a name="212580240"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/212580240" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#212580240">(Oct 07 2020 at 15:59)</a>:</h4>
<p>I was just coming to ask that same question!</p>



<a name="212580964"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/212580964" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Josh Triplett <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#212580964">(Oct 07 2020 at 16:03)</a>:</h4>
<p>We didn't have anything on the schedule. And I'm on vacation this week and wouldn't be able to attend.</p>



<a name="212581948"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/212581948" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#212581948">(Oct 07 2020 at 16:10)</a>:</h4>
<p>will cancel</p>



<a name="213090326"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/213090326" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#213090326">(Oct 12 2020 at 21:58)</a>:</h4>
<p>I realize we didn't discuss design meeting schedule! I'd like to decide  if we will have a design meeting this week</p>



<a name="213090334"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/213090334" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#213090334">(Oct 12 2020 at 21:58)</a>:</h4>
<p>I also think we need a new system for doing this scheduling</p>



<a name="213090336"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/213090336" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#213090336">(Oct 12 2020 at 21:58)</a>:</h4>
<p>this one is not working</p>



<a name="213090339"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/213090339" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> simulacrum <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#213090339">(Oct 12 2020 at 21:58)</a>:</h4>
<p>Have we finished bonanza?</p>



<a name="213090345"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/213090345" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#213090345">(Oct 12 2020 at 21:59)</a>:</h4>
<p>not quite</p>



<a name="213090357"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/213090357" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#213090357">(Oct 12 2020 at 21:59)</a>:</h4>
<p>I'm not 100% sure if <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="239881">@Josh Triplett</span> can attend</p>



<a name="213090363"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/213090363" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#213090363">(Oct 12 2020 at 21:59)</a>:</h4>
<p>but I'd be game to keep pressing on bonanza</p>



<a name="213090366"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/213090366" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> simulacrum <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#213090366">(Oct 12 2020 at 21:59)</a>:</h4>
<p>I would like to suggest that then, I think, since given short notice I think anything else is not feasible</p>



<a name="213316613"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/213316613" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#213316613">(Oct 14 2020 at 16:30)</a>:</h4>
<p>Reminder: <span class="user-group-mention" data-user-group-id="1977">@T-lang</span> backlog bonanza in ~30 minutes</p>



<a name="213320763"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/213320763" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#213320763">(Oct 14 2020 at 17:01)</a>:</h4>
<p><a href="https://paper.dropbox.com/doc/Backlog-bonanza--A9fDSghmGUYfWWYY0cp0nwvXAg-2IcACiM0KX1up1thIeiWh">Backlog bonanza paper document</a></p>



<a name="213320809"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/213320809" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> simulacrum <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#213320809">(Oct 14 2020 at 17:01)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-group-mention" data-user-group-id="1977">@T-lang</span> meeting starting now if you want to join</p>



<a name="213321636"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/213321636" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> pnkfelix <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#213321636">(Oct 14 2020 at 17:07)</a>:</h4>
<p>(Going to be a bit late; got caught in middle of prep for something that needs finishing now)</p>



<a name="213843794"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/213843794" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#213843794">(Oct 19 2020 at 20:50)</a>:</h4>
<p>So I was looking at the design meetings and I propose:</p>
<ul>
<li>Oct 21 (this Wed) -- backlog bonanza</li>
<li>Nov 4 -- <a href="https://github.com/rust-lang/lang-team/issues/55">RFC 2580 discussion</a>, presuming <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="219747">@Simon Sapin</span> can make it </li>
<li>Nov 11 -- review paper, presuming authors can make it</li>
</ul>



<a name="213843837"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/213843837" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#213843837">(Oct 19 2020 at 20:50)</a>:</h4>
<p>I left next week empty to give us a bit of time for scheduling</p>



<a name="213845202"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/213845202" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Simon Sapin <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#213845202">(Oct 19 2020 at 21:00)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention" data-user-id="116009">@nikomatsakis</span> What time/tz on Nov 4?</p>



<a name="213845279"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/213845279" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> scottmcm <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#213845279">(Oct 19 2020 at 21:01)</a>:</h4>
<p>I believe it's 1700Z</p>



<a name="213845369"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/213845369" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Simon Sapin <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#213845369">(Oct 19 2020 at 21:01)</a>:</h4>
<p>That would work for me</p>



<a name="213846583"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/213846583" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Mara <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#213846583">(Oct 19 2020 at 21:11)</a>:</h4>
<p>(might be useful: zulip supports putting timestamps in messages which it automatically converts to the timezone of whoever it is displayed to: <time datetime="2020-11-04T17:00:00Z">2020-11-04T17:00:00+00:00</time> )</p>



<a name="213847610"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/213847610" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Josh Triplett <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#213847610">(Oct 19 2020 at 21:18)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention" data-user-id="116009">@nikomatsakis</span> What about using October 28 for a combination of process discussion and lang-team expectations?</p>



<a name="213847671"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/213847671" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Josh Triplett <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#213847671">(Oct 19 2020 at 21:19)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention" data-user-id="116009">@nikomatsakis</span> "should we changing how we handle MCPs to match compiler and align with what libs adopted", for instance.</p>



<a name="213847691"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/213847691" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Josh Triplett <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#213847691">(Oct 19 2020 at 21:19)</a>:</h4>
<p>As well as "are we comfortable with the state of the "expectations" doc.</p>



<a name="213848117"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/213848117" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Josh Triplett <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#213848117">(Oct 19 2020 at 21:22)</a>:</h4>
<p>Ah, I just saw the other thread on meta to discuss this.</p>



<a name="213853349"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/213853349" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#213853349">(Oct 19 2020 at 22:16)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention" data-user-id="239881">@Josh Triplett</span> I think it would be fine, but i'd like us to prepare a proposal before then</p>



<a name="213853355"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/213853355" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#213853355">(Oct 19 2020 at 22:16)</a>:</h4>
<p>I guess if we both agree to spend a bit of time on it, i'd be game</p>



<a name="213853391"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/213853391" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#213853391">(Oct 19 2020 at 22:17)</a>:</h4>
<p>but I kind of thought we might try to do that work first</p>



<a name="213855200"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/213855200" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> boats <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#213855200">(Oct 19 2020 at 22:37)</a>:</h4>
<p>(deleted)</p>



<a name="214081414"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/214081414" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#214081414">(Oct 21 2020 at 17:00)</a>:</h4>
<p>Hey <span class="user-group-mention" data-user-group-id="1977">@T-lang</span> backlog bonanza starting now</p>



<a name="214081449"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/214081449" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#214081449">(Oct 21 2020 at 17:00)</a>:</h4>
<p><a href="https://paper.dropbox.com/doc/Backlog-bonanza--A4b1MXnFfnbsFaJSUNGuUvg0Ag-2IcACiM0KX1up1thIeiWh">Paper doc</a></p>



<a name="214242489"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/214242489" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#214242489">(Oct 22 2020 at 20:13)</a>:</h4>
<p>Updated schedule so far:</p>
<ul>
<li>Nov 4: RFC 2580 (cc <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="219747">@Simon Sapin</span>) <a href="https://github.com/rust-lang/lang-team/issues/55">lang-team#55</a></li>
<li>Nov 18: Understanding real-world Rust programs <a href="https://github.com/rust-lang/lang-team/issues/53">lang-team#53</a></li>
</ul>
<p>For <a href="https://github.com/rust-lang/lang-team/issues/55">lang-team#55</a>, I would like someone to do a bit of work to help prepare some text for us to review. There is at least RFC 2580 but it seems like there were a few more and it might be good to begin the meeting with a summary of the lay of the land.</p>



<a name="214242542"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/214242542" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#214242542">(Oct 22 2020 at 20:14)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention" data-user-id="256759">@boats</span> you had mentioned a willingness to coordinate a design meeting, is that something you'd be interested in doing?</p>



<a name="216287822"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/216287822" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> simulacrum <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#216287822">(Nov 10 2020 at 23:12)</a>:</h4>
<p>Did we end up deciding to do nothing tomorrow (this week)? Or bonanza?</p>



<a name="216362639"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/216362639" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> simulacrum <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#216362639">(Nov 11 2020 at 15:49)</a>:</h4>
<p>cc <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="116009">@nikomatsakis</span></p>



<a name="216377605"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/216377605" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#216377605">(Nov 11 2020 at 17:54)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention" data-user-id="116122">@simulacrum</span> I canceled for this week</p>



<a name="216377621"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/216377621" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#216377621">(Nov 11 2020 at 17:54)</a>:</h4>
<p>but I wanted to recommend that <span class="user-group-mention" data-user-group-id="1977">@T-lang</span> folks can start to work through the work items from backlog bonanza</p>



<a name="216378201"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/216378201" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> simulacrum <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#216378201">(Nov 11 2020 at 18:00)</a>:</h4>
<p>Ah ok</p>



<a name="216378241"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/216378241" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> simulacrum <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#216378241">(Nov 11 2020 at 18:00)</a>:</h4>
<p>Sounds good</p>



<a name="219192811"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/219192811" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#219192811">(Dec 08 2020 at 10:47)</a>:</h4>
<p>Hey <span class="user-group-mention" data-user-group-id="1977">@T-lang</span> -- so the foundation project group (which includes me) is trying to organize time to meet with each team. Maybe we would like to schedule the design meeting next week (i.e., <time datetime="2020-12-16T18:00:00Z">2020-12-16T13:00:00-05:00</time>) to do that?</p>
<p>Separately, <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="239881">@Josh Triplett</span> and I were talking about the roadmap for 2021 and identifying possible themes, and I think that'd be a really great thing for us to talk about. It could likely wait until the new year though.</p>
<p>I plan to be offline for the last two weeks of the year, so I'm going to pre-emptively cancel the design meetings in that time.</p>



<a name="219351538"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/219351538" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#219351538">(Dec 09 2020 at 15:29)</a>:</h4>
<p>Thoughts on the above anyone? <span aria-label="point up" class="emoji emoji-1f446" role="img" title="point up">:point_up:</span></p>



<a name="219367466"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/219367466" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Josh Triplett <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#219367466">(Dec 09 2020 at 17:15)</a>:</h4>
<p>Using the next design meeting for that sounds good.</p>



<a name="220150711"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/220150711" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#220150711">(Dec 16 2020 at 18:04)</a>:</h4>
<p>Hey <span class="user-group-mention" data-user-group-id="1977">@T-lang</span> : design meeting today is Foundation Q&amp;A time</p>



<a name="221799785"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/221799785" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#221799785">(Jan 06 2021 at 17:58)</a>:</h4>
<p>Hey <span class="user-group-mention" data-user-group-id="1977">@T-lang</span> -- design meeting starting soon, I updated the calendar invite with a zoom url</p>



<a name="221799857"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/221799857" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#221799857">(Jan 06 2021 at 17:59)</a>:</h4>
<p>This week's topic: Weak refcounted pointers, dangling, alignment, and long-term implications for custom DSTs.<br>
Guest: Christopher Durham<br>
<a href="https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/pull/80407">https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/pull/80407</a></p>



<a name="221800089"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/221800089" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#221800089">(Jan 06 2021 at 18:00)</a>:</h4>
<p><a href="https://hackmd.io/7r3_is6uTz-163fsOV8Vfg">hackmd for meeting notes</a></p>



<a name="221800203"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/221800203" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#221800203">(Jan 06 2021 at 18:01)</a>:</h4>
<p>ping <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="239881">@Josh Triplett</span> -- are you able to attend?</p>



<a name="221800330"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/221800330" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Josh Triplett <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#221800330">(Jan 06 2021 at 18:02)</a>:</h4>
<p>Yes. Trying to join, got a zoom error.</p>



<a name="221800793"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/221800793" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> rylev <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#221800793">(Jan 06 2021 at 18:06)</a>:</h4>
<p>(are these meetings available for lurkers? And/or are they available for viewing after the fact?)</p>



<a name="221800969"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/221800969" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> simulacrum <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#221800969">(Jan 06 2021 at 18:07)</a>:</h4>
<p>lurkers are fine, there's a calendar invite I believe that Niko can send you</p>



<a name="221810062"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/221810062" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#221810062">(Jan 06 2021 at 19:20)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention" data-user-id="224872">@Ryan Levick</span> the calendar is here <a href="https://lang-team.rust-lang.org/calendar.html">https://lang-team.rust-lang.org/calendar.html</a></p>



<a name="221833838"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/221833838" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Christopher Durham <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#221833838">(Jan 06 2021 at 22:45)</a>:</h4>
<p>Resulting rust-lang PR: <a href="https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/pull/80764">https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/pull/80764</a></p>



<a name="221834411"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/221834411" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Josh Triplett <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#221834411">(Jan 06 2021 at 22:50)</a>:</h4>
<p>Looks reasonable.</p>



<a name="221834437"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/221834437" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Josh Triplett <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#221834437">(Jan 06 2021 at 22:51)</a>:</h4>
<p>Reading that makes me curious: why <em>does</em> Weak use a non-NULL value as a sentinel pointer, rather than using NULL?</p>



<a name="221835477"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/221835477" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> tm <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#221835477">(Jan 06 2021 at 23:01)</a>:</h4>
<p>To leave a niche in <code>Weak&lt;T&gt;</code>, so that <code>Option&lt;Weak&lt;T&gt;&gt;</code> can be optimized.</p>



<a name="221837667"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design%20meeting/near/221837667" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Josh Triplett <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/213817-t-lang/topic/design.20meeting.html#221837667">(Jan 06 2021 at 23:25)</a>:</h4>
<p>Interesting.</p>



<hr><p>Last updated: Aug 07 2021 at 22:04 UTC</p>
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